Curse

jazilla · Jan 23, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

I would really like to see all weapon requirements have to be met by the player to get EVERY benefit from the weapon. You should not get the +5 Energy bonus from a sword/spear/axe etc. unless you meet the weapon requirement. Adrenaline should only be given to the character when they hit in melee if the weapon requirement is met by the player. If you can not fill the requirement of a weapon you should not get bonus to health, armor etc. Shields should not give armor at all unless the requirement is met.

Arduin · Jan 23, 2010, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Obvious question: why would you want this change?

Because it would severely screw over the non-caster professions when using a staff for extra energy.

xMinimalism · Jan 23, 2010, 06:06 PM // 18:06

They made the game how they want it to be.

As Arduin asked:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

Obvious question: why would you want this change?

Grim Aragorn · Jan 23, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

BUT THEN ALL THE PVE MONKS CANT RUN AROUND WITH TORMENTED SHIELDS AND EBLADEs !!!!!! NOT fAIR AT ALL!

MagmaRed · Jan 23, 2010, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I would really like to see all weapon requirements have to be met by the player to get EVERY benefit from the weapon. You should not get the +5 Energy bonus from a sword/spear/axe etc. unless you meet the weapon requirement. Adrenaline should only be given to the character when they hit in melee if the weapon requirement is met by the player. If you can not fill the requirement of a weapon you should not get bonus to health, armor etc. Shields should not give armor at all unless the requirement is met.

You obviously don't play, or like, the Paragon class. This would hurt far more than help, and I do see SOME of the reasons you may want this. But the people benefitting from weapons/shields they do not meet the requirement for are not always getting the full benefit, and they pay other costs to get what they are getting.

You sound like someone who can't kill a player in RA because they are using a shield on a Monk.

jazilla · Jan 23, 2010, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

You obviously don't play, or like, the Paragon class. This would hurt far more than help, and I do see SOME of the reasons you may want this. But the people benefitting from weapons/shields they do not meet the requirement for are not always getting the full benefit, and they pay other costs to get what they are getting.

You sound like someone who can't kill a player in RA because they are using a shield on a Monk.

I do fine in RA. I am only R2 but I didn't start playing regularly in RA until a few months ago. I just find it ridiculous that as a monk, I can use a melee weapon and focus and get more energy out of it and swap with a shield when those items aren't intended for my class. I find it ridiculous that i even get 8 AL from a shield from something that I pour zero points into. This would help in a lot of areas. I love the paragon class and you can see my post on the front page of this section of the forums that is here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10420689.html
I am really just under the impression and it is my opinion that you should have to use the items that correspond to your skill set and attributes. If Hammer Warriors want to get adrenaline from spear use, they should have to pour points into it. If monks want armor from a shield, they should have to pour points into whatever attribute they are using. It's my opinion and I don't think it's as outlandish of me to think that way as you are seeming to make it out to be.

Reverend Dr · Jan 23, 2010, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Actually I feel that a lot of complications are arising from being able to get some equipment benefits without the supposed investment in attribute points.

jazilla · Jan 23, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

Obvious question: why would you want this change?

Because it would severely screw over the non-caster professions when using a staff for extra energy.

I think that is my point. Why should there be benefits for these classes from weapons that don't correspond to the attributes that they have points in? It is my opinion that this goes against balancing the game. As I wsaid above, if a warrior wants to get adrenaline for his hammer by using a spear, he/she should have to put points into spear mastery to get said adrenaline. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp, or why it sounds so drastic to people. You should have to use the weapons that correspond to your attributes. It's pretty straightforward and logical. If you want energy from a staff, fill out the requirement for the staff.

Arduin · Jan 23, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

The concept is hard to grasp because these game mechanics are in place for nearly 5 years now.

I'm thinking more about the trade-offs, taking the monk with a shield as example. Extremely simplified, a Monk with a shield with 12 in Tactics would gain 16 AL from the shield but needs to pull points from Divine Favor, thereby having less healing power. A Monk with 0 in Tactics would only have 8 AL from the shield, but would have more healing power. And a Monk without a shield, but using a focus would have 0 AL, but extra energy and a possible half skill recharge, depending on mods.

That's why I think it's acceptable to have professions using 'non-intended' weapons.

Axel Zinfandel · Jan 23, 2010, 09:51 PM // 21:51

As in Arduin's example, it's fine the way it is.

Attacking with a spear with no points will gain adrenaline sure, but you aren't doing any real damage at all, same with energy/AL from Focuses/staffs/shields.

To answer this question:

Quote:

Why should there be benefits for these classes from weapons that don't correspond to the attributes that they have points in?

Because GW itself is based around synergy with secondary professions as well as their weapons. Not to mention what you are proposing is far too much hassle, for the players and the devs.

However though I think what you're proposing IS on the extreme side, I don't see why some of those added bonus can't be reduced/scaled like AL/Energy is as well. +energy on staffs should be fine because there is no req for them. Adrenaline is fine the way it is, and shouldn't scale or be reduced.

However I can see bonuses from mods scaled

...but do I think it's necessary? definitely not.

jazilla · Jan 23, 2010, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

As in Arduin's example, it's fine the way it is.

Attacking with a spear with no points will gain adrenaline sure, but you aren't doing any real damage at all, same with energy/AL from Focuses/staffs/shields.

To answer this question:

Because GW itself is based around synergy with secondary professions as well as their weapons. Not to mention what you are proposing is far too much hassle, for the players and the devs.

However though I think what you're proposing IS on the extreme side, I don't see why some of those added bonus can't be reduced/scaled like AL/Energy is as well. +energy on staffs should be fine because there is no req for them. Adrenaline is fine the way it is, and shouldn't scale or be reduced.

However I can see bonuses from mods scaled

...but do I think it's necessary? definitely not.

If Adrenaline were fine how it is, then why do warriors use spears that they pour no points into get adrenaline faster with a spear than by using the hammer that they have all the points in for? That is the disconnect for me. People complain that balance will never happen again, but what I am proposing would get rid of quite a few gimmick builds just with this change to weapons. As far as the secondary profession is concerned, you shouldn't be able to equip a weapon from any class and get the benefit unless you have the points in the attribute. If I go secondary mesmer, I should have to have req. 9 in whatever attribute to use a weapon/focus shield in that mesmer line. I shouldn't be able to go A/Me and use a monk staff for energy. It seems ridiculous at that point to even have requirements for weapons at all. This would help the economy as well by getting rid of people buying rare skins for stuff they don't have the req for. if youw ant 20% enchanting on a staff, fill out the req. if you are an assassin you should have to get it with daggers unless you can pour the points into the other attribute. this i think is the intended use of req 8 weapons as well. and would make them more expensive, which they should be.

MagmaRed · Jan 23, 2010, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Adrenaline comes from physical activity. You can gain adrenaline without even hitting anything with any weapon. All you need is to take damage and wait patiently. You want to change game mechanics in a HUGE way. Currently the requirement on a weapon/shield/focus/etc. only corresponds to one aspect of that item. So a staff gives you less damage when you do not meet the requirement, but all other mods work fine. To change that would mean that energy, skill recharge, casting speed, condition reduction, etc. would need to be modified. And due to those modifications, skill balance would need to be altered.

Shields give you armor even with no points towards the requirement, but not the full armor. This is the balance for it. Weapons do damage with no points towards the requirement, but not very much damage. This is the balance for it. If the other mods on weapons that do not need a requirement bother you, play something else. Although the game is not perfect, it has been around for almost 5 years and had very little change in the game mechanics. Such a major change at this point in the game would be silly.

Do any of the things you want changed pose a SERIOUS problem to current game balance? If so, which, and how?

Pugs Not Drugs · Jan 23, 2010, 10:47 PM // 22:47

like it was mentioned before, this would seriously screw over all those pve monks with dedicated torm swords/spears/axes/shields, not to mention the impact it would have on the economy

Yawgmoth · Jan 23, 2010, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Horrible suggestion that would do only bad and nothing nothing good at all. Seriously, the system works perfectly fine and your pointless nerfs would only kill variety of possible uses. Adding MORE variety would be much better instead, but that too would have to impact the balance.

Oh, and the impact on economy would also be hugely NEGATIVE.

jazilla · Jan 23, 2010, 11:43 PM // 23:43

i can't believe that making people only use an item that they have points in is such a huge deal. to me it is perfectly logical. @MagmaRed: seriously, i ma not saying that people shouldn't get adrenaline when hit. I am just saying get rid of the gimmick ways in which people get adrenaline. it's not that wild to think that is a viable solution to fix some things. that would cause balance because you would be forced to spend points into an attribute to use an item. if i go with your logic then, why not just change it so that requirements mean nothing? It's not as if the current situation is perfect. far from it. I am just trying to cause discussion to fix some of the problems in the game.

Dre · Jan 24, 2010, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

If Adrenaline were fine how it is, then why do warriors use spears that they pour no points into get adrenaline faster with a spear than by using the hammer that they have all the points in for? That is the disconnect for me. People complain that balance will never happen again, but what I am proposing would get rid of quite a few gimmick builds just with this change to weapons.

There's nothing gimmicky about building up adrenaline with a spear
I already did that with a bow before the release of factions

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

As far as the secondary profession is concerned, you shouldn't be able to equip a weapon from any class and get the benefit unless you have the points in the attribute. If I go secondary mesmer, I should have to have req. 9 in whatever attribute to use a weapon/focus shield in that mesmer line. I shouldn't be able to go A/Me and use a monk staff for energy. It seems ridiculous at that point to even have requirements for weapons at all. This would help the economy as well by getting rid of people buying rare skins for stuff they don't have the req for. if youw ant 20% enchanting on a staff, fill out the req. if you are an assassin you should have to get it with daggers unless you can pour the points into the other attribute. this i think is the intended use of req 8 weapons as well. and would make them more expensive, which they should be.

Req 8 shields? maybe
Req 8 melee/ranged weapons? no

Weapons already do lower dmg when you don't meet the requirement
Seems more than enough for me

Desert Rose · Jan 24, 2010, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

i can't believe that making people only use an item that they have points in is such a huge deal. to me it is perfectly logical.

Even if you're not proficient with the use of a shield you're still more likely to be able to defend against a sword thrust with a shield than without one, the same applies to weapons. The GW system is perfectly logical, your logic is flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

People complain that balance will never happen again, but what I am proposing would get rid of quite a few gimmick builds just with this change to weapons.

Mind to give a few examples for those gimmick builds? 'Cause not a single one comes to my mind.

This suggestion would reduce the number of useable weapon sets, therefor reduce the importance of proper weapon swapping. Weapon swapping enables very ambitious players to be a little better than anybody else, so it shouldn't be limited or removed.

Schnellburg · Jan 24, 2010, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

i can't believe that making people only use an item that they have points in is such a huge deal. to me it is perfectly logical. @MagmaRed: seriously, i ma not saying that people shouldn't get adrenaline when hit. I am just saying get rid of the gimmick ways in which people get adrenaline. it's not that wild to think that is a viable solution to fix some things. that would cause balance because you would be forced to spend points into an attribute to use an item. if i go with your logic then, why not just change it so that requirements mean nothing? It's not as if the current situation is perfect. far from it. I am just trying to cause discussion to fix some of the problems in the game.

Fine, give me more attribute points and I'll gladly sign off on this, otherwise this is just a no. You don't like gimmicks then don't play those builds/way. In the end your trying to screw with how people play the game and make they play your way. You can't do that! There are more important problems in this game, this is not even an issue, let alone a discussion we should be having. This would take way too much time/work from the developers, and you seriously want them to rework the entire games mechanics, instead of releasing skill updates? I don't know about you, but that 2nd thing sounds WAY more important then this nonsense.

Ginger Hunter · Jan 24, 2010, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Bad idea. Simple as.

For starters, if this did get implemented you would most likely have to cool down alot of damage coming lots of different sources as shields are currently a way to tone down the stupid amount of damage warriors, rangers, paragons and elementalists are capable of pumping out these days. It would completely mess up balance (the very little that is left), and would require of alot of work to sort out.

HawkofStorms · Jan 24, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35

So... you want to make the game more simplistic, not to mention break a lot of the core concepts of having a secondary profession.

There isn't any real BENEFIT to this change.